November 13, 2005

Useful narratives

During the exchange of comments on a previous posting I suggested that if British and Anglospheric history were taught properly in schools, it would provide a real narrative for Muslim immigrants and their descendants. Tentatively, I should like to enlarge on that, hoping that other people might contribute ideas. It is, after all, a very important problem for us all in the Anglospheric countries (and not only in them, as the riots in France show).

As I write this the Remembrance Service from the Cenotaph is on the radio. The High Commissioners of many Commonwealth countries are laying wreaths as well in memory of their soldiers who had volunteered to fight and died. For there were many Muslim (and Hindu) soldiers in the trenches on the Western Front. There were many more in the Near East. Many fought in the Second World War.

It is not yet known for certain who is responsible for the murderous bombs in India, planted in crowded market places days before important Hindu and Muslim festivals. It is possible that the answer will have something to do with Kashmir or the Punjab and that should remind us all of the problems the Indian sub-continent has faced as a result of the over-hasty and botched British disentanglement in 1947.

If, on the other hand, it will prove to be the work of Al-Qaeda, then we shall be reminded once again of the fact that many Muslims on the Indian sub-continent have abandoned their own culture and history to look to ideas that come out of the Middle East and have little to do with them.

The same problem has been noted among the Muslim population in some parts of Britain. By and large they are from the Indian sub-continent and the young men’s pretence that they are historically linked to ideas and movements that come out of a completely different culture is erroneous. This needs to be countered by their own leaders and teachers and by the teaching of history in the schools.

The idea that Muslims have an honoured place in the narrative of the British Empire and Commonwealth and, therefore, the Anglosphere is not particularly new. It has merely been buried by the well-paid nomenklatura of the multiculture and race-relations industry, who, alas, control a great deal of the education in numerous Anglospheric countries. (Mostly, I am speaking for Britain, the country whose dire educational standards I know best.)

In his recent essay in The New Criterion John O’Sullivan wrote:

Compared to the recent past, both British and American identities today are weak ones. Their appeal is soft and seductive, making few demands, offering not pride and achievement but a pleasant life, available welfare, low standards, and easy self-esteem. In a world without migration, that might not matter. But migration has brought people with a strong and challenging identity into their countries – notably, Muslims who have established resistant faith communities wherever they have lived. British life succeeds in tempting many Muslims into an apostasy – to secularism, alcohol, and sex rather than to Christianity – but that makes those remaining in the faith still more determined to remain orthodox and, at the extremes, to attack the decadent society that is corrupting the faithful. An earlier Britain might have made the four young Muslim bombers from Yorkshire into soldiers of the Queen. Today’s Britain, uncertain and neurotic, allowed them to drift into a culture of religious murder.

Some of the young men involved had deliberately eschewed the life they saw around them: drinking, drugs, aimless hanging around. Instead, they decided to start a network that would lead them to reading and studying what they saw as matters important to their lives. This attitude is not that different from the self-improving instincts of the Victorian and Edwardian working classes, aided and abetted as they were by educated middle class young men and women.

However, there seemed no obvious outlet for the Muslim young men and their network was taken over by the more extreme imams, leading to a desperate tragedy. An earlier Britain might very well have made the lads into soldiers of the Queen but, also, into doctors or teachers or, as their parents and many other immigrants have become, successful businessmen.

An additional point to be made, which needs a completely separate discussion, is that this is more of a problem for the young men. For young women a way out of their communities represents individual freedom and achievement from which they are forcibly held back.

In August there were two articles by Mihir Bose in the Daily Telegraph that discussed the issue of where Britain’s immigrants, particularly the Muslim ones, since they are the ones with the real difficulties, can fit in Britain’s history.

The first one of them, “Britain has a shared history with its immigrants – unlike America” summed up the argument in the title.

Mr. Bose argued, quite rightly, that there was no point in Britain following America’s example in trying to assimilate the new immigrants, as most of them from the various Commonwealth countries already have links of the kind many of the American incomers do not and have to acquire.

There are good aspects to this and bad:

America can impose a coherent historical narrative on immigrants because the countries they come from had no previous involvement with America. Settlers are able and encouraged to discard their native histories and accept the American version.

But the vast majority of non-white immigrants to Britain have come from our former colonies, and bring not only their own cultures but also their own versions of our shared history. So, in trying to construct a single coherent narrative for this island, we are faced with trying to marry two historical streams: the “home” version and the “export” version.

It can, of course, be done with a little effort but not without the teaching of history. Britain’s relationship with the former colonies, the Empire and the Commonwealth is complicated and many-stranded. Australians will always think differently about Britain from the way the various peoples of the Indian sub-continent do and the latter have, in many ways, a warmer attitude.

The British Commonwealth Ex-Servicemen’s League, which works tirelessly to help people across the many former colonies, complains bitterly how little the people of this country know of what has been done for them by the many people of the Empire and the Commonwealth. As Mr. Bose wrote:

Soldiers from the subcontinent have fought for Britain for more than 200 years in many lands. At the splendid fort at Jodhpur recently, I saw a gun won by the Rajputs in putting down the Boxer rebellion in China.

The Second World War saw 2.8 million Inidans fight for the British the largest volunteer army in the war. [my emphasis] India also suffered terrible civilian losses during the war, with 3.5 million Bengalis dying of famine.

The Gurkhas are citizens of a country whose last war fought against the British in 1816. Since then, Nepal has been neutral in all other conflicts, but its citizens have proved to be Britain’s best fighters.

As Sir Ralph Turner, former officer in the Third Gurkha Rifles wrote:

Bravest of the brave, most generous of the generous, never had country more faithful friends than you.

These words are carved on Philip Jackson’s splendid memorial to the Gurkhas in Horse Guards Avenue. Disgracefully, that memorial was not put up till 1997, though there are other, smaller memorials and museums round the country.

There are honourable places there for Gurkhas, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims.

The Gurkhas may know their history, but many of the new Britons know their own no better than the British themselves. Mr. Bose again:

As the great Trinidadian CLR James put it, what do the people of Britain know what was done in their name in far-flung places? And, sadly, the history is increasingly unknown to immigrants and their descendants, too. Indians do not want to be reminded that they collaborated in such large numbers with colonial masters.

We might add to James’s question: what do Pakistani and Indian Britons know of what their grandfathers did in the name of Britain?

Just as the American Constitutional model is not really for export, neither is the American model of integration. Britain shares a history with many of its immigrants and that history must be taught. It provides a narrative and a great and honourable place for the grandfathers of the immigrants as well as the “native” population (for who is really native in this country?).

Mihir Bose’s second piece was called “British Muslims forgetting their roots”. It deals with the specific history of the Muslims in the Indian sub-continent. The article summed up the achievements of Syed Ahmed Khan in reconciling the Muslims of India with the British in the aftermath of the 1857 Mutiny. (And while we are on the subject, is not the Mutiny part of the Muslim history as much as that of Britain? The British have an admirable tradition of honouring the courageous enemy, particularly after that enemy has been defeated.)

Lack of historical knowledge has turned young British Muslims, whose families come from the Indian sub-continent, away from their own true traditions to the “Middle Eastern strain of pan-Islamism, which is essentially a political, not a religious idea, with its origins in late 19th century Turkey and Persia.”

The outcome has been tragic, as Mr Bose sums up:

Today it is rich Saudis who assiduously propagate pan-Islamism. The result has been that British Muslims have become alienated from their roots, both Indian/Pakistani and British. They have been encouraged to forget they belong to a very different cultural strain than the Saudis.

They are mostly converts from Hinduism and there is large measure of the gentle Sufi tradition in them. But influenced by imams, themselves financed by Middle Eastern money, many try to prove they are as Muslim as their co-religionists from the Middle East.

Of course, they are not Middle Easterners, as they find out when they go there. They are treated as if they were Hindu infidels.

It is a great pity that Mr. Bose was not asked to develop his ideas and knowledge. It is a great pity that the Daily Telegraph did not see fit to ask other people to write on the subject. It is a great pity that in our rush to forget our history we refuse to see that the narrative we are all looking for, that would somehow give a place and roots to immigrants and their descendants, is already there.

Posted by Helen Szamuely at November 13, 2005 08:35 AM
Comments

Very interesting, Helen. There is a comment on the graves of soldiers named Khan in the battlefields of France over on Samizdata. The commenter said it was time to start teaching history in school. Thus would have the Muslims' role in the British Empire have been conveyed to Muslim schoolchildren who would not grow up to feel so disconnected with Britain. I thought it was a sound comment.

Posted by: Verity at November 13, 2005 08:50 AM

While I don't disagree with the general thesis, I found this statement a little strange:

...many Muslims on the Indian sub-continent have abandoned their own culture and history to look to ideas that come out of the Middle East and have little to do with them.

The problem is that Islam itself came out of the Middle East, so it's not (unfortunately) unreasonable for followers of that faith to look to that region for guidance (do you think that Catholics shouldn't be expected to look to Rome?). Of course, the analogy is imperfect, in that there is no Islamic equivalent of the Pope. In fact, because there isn't, it makes it easier for a bin Laden to attempt to fill the perceived vacuum.

It comes back to the point that Islam must reform, as Christianity did. It still awaits its Luther.

Posted by: Rand Simberg at November 13, 2005 10:13 AM

Mr. Simberg, the problem with the arrival of an "Islamic Luther" is that the tenets and doctrines of Islam explicitly ruled out "innovation" very early in its' development. Reinterpretation, with few exceptions, or a new gloss is seen as apostasy. Hoping that various strands, for example Sufism, may lead to a reweaving of Islamic thought is a hopeless endeavor.

Posted by: M.H. Wood at November 13, 2005 10:53 AM

Rand, Mohammad was a "Luther" to start out with. Islam was from its inception a "heresy" against Christianity, which Mohammad had been exposed to. The Muslims do not need a "reformation" because the problems they have are not akin to the problems of the Catholic middle ages in Europe. The Muslims are already a fissaparous, book-centric religion in which there is no clear authority and a charismatic demagogue can gain a following. The Muslims do not need a Luther, they need a Pope -- or, to be true to their own traditions, a restoration of the religious authority of the caliphate. The destruction of the caliphate in the wake of World War I was an afterthought, but it has had large, long-term repercussions. Their religion cannot function without it. The question for the hour is "who will restore it, and on what terms". As in so much else, this element of Osama bin Laden's program is ignored in the West. But he is absolutely correct about this need, and he is clever to want to reestablish it on his terms.

Posted by: Lex at November 13, 2005 12:13 PM

I agree totally that there are alternative narratives, which have the merit of historical truth, which should be brought to the attention of more people. I also agree, based on my reading, that the Muslims of the subcontinent had a civilization with a flavor of its own, as did many other peoples and regions, and it is only the vast leverage of Saudi oil money pushing a particularly harsh version of Islam, that has allowed the Arab-Muslim-derived brand that leads to terrorism to flourish in so many places. Of course, this is an intra-Muslim issue in the main, and one they are going to have to work out for themselves.

The forgetting of the immense contribution that non-British people made in so many ways as part of the British Empire is a disgraceful thing. Not only the Indians, but people from many places who served in the military. Ireland, for example, has chosen collective amnesia regarding the military service of its people prior to 1922, when Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.

This monumental website seeks to consolidate the history of every regiment which served the British Empire. It is worth looking at it. Much of it is still a work in progress, but I wish them well.


Posted by: Lex at November 13, 2005 12:37 PM

Helen,

>>During the exchange of comments on a previous posting I suggested that if British and Anglospheric history were taught properly in schools, it would provide a real narrative for Muslim immigrants and their descendants. Tentatively, I should like to enlarge on that, hoping that other people might contribute ideas. It is, after all, a very important problem for us all in the Anglospheric countries (and not only in them, as the riots in France show).

I think it is worth bearing in mind that it may not be necessary to assimilate and still have a place in society. Wahabis have enormous respect for the Old Order Amish and that should tell us something about a peaceful direction in which the most conservative Muslims abroad might be willing to evolve. The Amish have problems but their example could show some Muslims a way to be true to their beliefs without waging war on the society to which they belong.

The role models for the majority of young Muslims in Britain should be the non-conforming religious minorities who played such a powerful role in the British industrial revolution. It is true that these people were mostly Christian but they suffered formal discrimination until the 19th century. They were imbued with Enlightenment ideas about nature, science, technology, and progress and they played vital roles in the abolition of slavery and a raft of other reforms while leading lives of modesty and probity. Although they were active in proselytism abroad, they did not seek religious confrontation at home and tried instead to bear witness to their faith by example.


Posted by: David Billington at November 13, 2005 12:51 PM

Another problem with waiting for an Islamic Luther is that he has already come, and left behind the extreme Wahabi sect. Just as Luther's reforms resulted in the Puritans. Better to teach history (in fact simply to teach) and let people learn about Britain, India, the Raj, and Indian Islam which has already had hundreds of years exposed to the real world to soften it to something more palatable than recently imported Wahibism.

Posted by: chris at November 13, 2005 01:13 PM

The Amish will shun people who stray or leave the faith, but I'm not familiar with any examples of murdering them, or of their having a holy book that requires it.

Posted by: Rand Simberg at November 13, 2005 01:16 PM

Lex - with respect, I do not believe that the Muslims of the subcontinent had their own developed culture. If you are thinking of the kings who built the Lodhi tombs and similar, they were from Iran (Persia). All the beguiling art of the period, from Pesian miniature to murals were from Iran, as were the beautiful landscaped gardens, with fountains, and water running along central chanels. The most famous monument of all, the Taj Mahal, was built by Shah Jehan, a Mughal. The Mughals were orignally Mongols. None of these Muslim civilisations was indigenous to the subcontinent.

Posted by: Verity at November 13, 2005 01:28 PM

I know the comments have steared away from the original post, but perhaps if more Britains were taught the exploits of Viscount Slim, who lead a multi-ethnic British army of English Islanders, Aussies, Africans and South Asians against the Japanese in what was the second largest land front (after the Russian front) in Eastern India/Burma. He aslo wrote one of the best military autobiographies out there.

Posted by: ElamBend at November 13, 2005 03:20 PM

Mehir Bose's pieces were excellent and his main point, that Muslims in Britain do have a shared history with the British that is not taught, and that could be of use in helping them find a connection to Britain, is true and important. But he doesn't really understand the American experience with assimilation well enough to say that it has no lessons to teach Britain. To begin with, the largest single groups of immigrants to the US do have a complex shared history with America -- Mexicans, Central Americans, and the Hispanosphere Caribbeans. (Also Canadians, who are a substantial if invisible group.) This history has been on the whole less positive than that of Britain and its colonies.

The US experience with immigraton could not and should not be imitated wholesale in the UK. However, it, along with the Canadian and Australian experiences, should be studied carefully for lessons.

Posted by: Jim Bennett at November 13, 2005 04:14 PM

Developing a national narrative that finds a place for immigrants is not always about the past. In fact it might be more effective to develop a narrative that is future oriented, where people of different backgrounds can forge a common identity based on shared aspirations and a vision of where they are going together rather on where they may have separately come from.

Also a shared identity can be created out of contemporary experiences. Today immigrants and the children of immigrants are serving in the military in Iraq and Afghanistan and all over the world and are a part of the American story.

Understanding our history is absolutely essential and the state of our history education is atrocious. But knowing the history isn't enough. We have to articulate the American ideals in contemporary terms that can inspire people to come together and work towards the future.

Posted by: phil at November 13, 2005 04:32 PM

Rand,

>>The Amish will shun people who stray or leave the faith, but I'm not familiar with any examples of murdering them, or of their having a holy book that requires it.

Muslims who choose to live in Britain presumably accept British law regarding the taking of life. My point is that for those who choose not to assimilate further a form of peaceful coexistence is possible as the Amish have proved.


Posted by: David Billington at November 13, 2005 06:12 PM

Muslims who choose to live in Britain presumably accept British law regarding the taking of life.

You mean like the native-born bombers who murdered in the Tube on July 7th?

Posted by: Rand Simberg at November 13, 2005 09:09 PM

I was very impressed by David Billington's comment about the possible role model provided to Muslims by the Nonconformists. That type of role offers something more positive than merely fitting in.

Posted by: Natalie Solent at November 14, 2005 06:57 AM

Rand >>You mean like the native-born bombers who murdered in the Tube on July 7th?

Sorry if I was imprecise in my wording. The vast majority of Muslims living in Britain are not would-be killers and it this majority to whom I meant to refer. Of course those who think religious murder is a higher calling have to be fought.

Posted by: David Billington at November 14, 2005 09:58 AM

The vast majority of Muslims living in Britain are not would-be killers and it this majority to whom I meant to refer.

I agree that the vast majority of Muslims living in Britain (or anywhere else for that matter) are not would-be killers. Nonetheless, I don't see much complaing from them when the minority kill in their name. Unless they kill Muslims, of course, as we saw in Jordan over the weekend...

Posted by: Rand Simberg at November 14, 2005 01:43 PM

I knew that if I put that posting up I would get all sorts of responses.

It is the fact that native born Britons of immigrant background decided to blow themselves and others up that should make us realize that we have let these people slip away.

Somebody suggested the nonconformist groups as a model. There is a great deal to that. As I pointed out, in part the young men in question did want to better themselves and were repelled by what they saw around them. And, if it comes to that, that may well be the problem: a lack of cultural entity around the young Muslims that they can look to. It is a problem for the non-Muslim young men and women in some of our countries as well.

Islam is a fissiparous culture, as several people pointed out, and there is no real need to look to the Middle East. Whether the Muslim culture of the Indian sub-continent is indigenous or not (whatever that may mean), it is different from Arabic culture. Just think of Islamic art. Theoretically, it should have no representations of human figure, as that is akin to a representation of Allah. Yet, how many strands of Islamic art obey that? Not in the Indian sub-continent, not in Persia, not in the Ottoman Empire or Turkey, not in the various South-East Asian countries. You can go through many other aspects of culture and see the differences. It is a tragedy for the Muslims from the Indian sub-continent not to be aware of any part of their historic background and the emptiness that leaves is filled up with the Wahhabist teaching.

Posted by: Helen at November 14, 2005 03:03 PM

So, now that we've had the discussion, what narratives do we have to integrate Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, shamanists, animists etc into the Anglosphere? Why should a Muslim want to buy into the Anglosphere narrative? How can we persuade people who are coming from pre-individualist cultures to buy into the individualist dynamism of the Anglosphere? We have to answer these kinds of questions. Why should a Muslim be inspired by and identify with the 1688 revolution? Or the Anti-Corn Law movement? How do we deal with the apparent existential crises and ennui of the middle-class British Muslim who enjoys a level of affluence unprecendented in human history and yet who is motivated to commit mass murder, while knowing that in the late 1800s Swedish, German, Welsh and other immigrants settled out on the Great Plains, living in sod houses and working their asses off farming and trying to build something for themselves while enduring hardships we cannot fathom did not feel the need to commit mass murder? Give me a practical ideological tool to use to persuade current immigrants that they should be enthusiastic about and be willing to participate in an individualist, classical liberal, American identity.

Posted by: phil at November 14, 2005 05:38 PM

Phil has good and real questions. There are some answers. When he asks: "How can we persuade people who are coming from pre-individualist cultures to buy into the individualist dynamism of the Anglosphere?", there is a data base on this, and that is the track record of assimilation into the Anglosphere (primarily the USA, but also Canada, Australia, and others). For several centuries we have been taking people from extremely pre-modern and pre-individualist cultures and assimilating them to the Anglosphere culture set. Mostly by example -- they start to take on more and more of the characteristics of the people around them, and when the next generation goes to school, they like to be like their classmates. The low-trust-radius characteristics of their parents start to seem so paranoid and suspicious that they are laughable and embarrassing -- so "Old Country", as they say. And when it comes time to get married, they see their classmates picking their future spouses themselves, adn from a wide pool, not submitting to arranged marriages with mates from the old vaillage in the Old Country.

Now of course multiculturalism works against every one of these mechanisms. Ethnic- or religious-based education keeps them from classmates they can imitate. Encapsulation into ethnic ghettoes, and unemployment means they don't learn from their workmates or business associates. And tolerance of arranged marriages (against the will of the child) and "honor" killings, as we have seen in the UK, destroys the opportunity for assimilation via intemarriage. Hardly anyone on this blog is of "pure anglo-saxon" descent, and many of us know immigrant grandparents from very pre-modern sorts of places, but we all learned to love Magna Carta and all the rest.

Maybe these methods won't work with Muslims, but we don't know that they won't because they haven't really been tried, except to some extent in America, where they seem to have worked better than in the UK. Certainly they have worked with Buddhists, as the Japanese-American combat record in WWII demonstrated.

It wasn't broken, but the multiculturalists tried to "fix" it anyway. And we got 7/7 in London as a result. We probably can't go back to exactly what we had before, but we should try to learn as much as we can from the experience.

The old

Posted by: Jim Bennett at November 15, 2005 12:01 PM

So your thread here on the role of Indian's in WWII has struck me as something that can be encouraged. I'm a WWII re-enactor. I'm an American that works in a group that portrays a British unit (www.15threcce.org). We do British because it just wasn't the US. The thing is, I have a mess of Indians and Pakistanis in my area that I live (lots of good places to eat too!). But it strikes me that we need a WWII Indian Re-enacting group here in Atlanta. So, I'm going to see if I can somehow sponsor a group.

Posted by: Ryan Gill at November 16, 2005 10:02 PM

So your thread here on the role of Indian's in WWII has struck me as something that can be encouraged. I'm a WWII re-enactor. I'm an American that works in a group that portrays a British unit (www.15threcce.org). We do British because it just wasn't the US. The thing is, I have a mess of Indians and Pakistanis in my area that I live (lots of good places to eat too!). But it strikes me that we need a WWII Indian Re-enacting group here in Atlanta. So, I'm going to see if I can somehow sponsor a group.

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306
307
308
309
310
311
312


205
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
215
216
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220
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226
227
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229
230
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296
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298
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300
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
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312
313
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315
316
317


1278
1279
1280
1281
1282
1283
1284
1285
1286
1287
1288
1289
1290
1291
1292
1293
1294
1295
1296
1297

259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
271
272
274

316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332


283
284
285
286
287
289
290
292
293
295
296
298
299
301
302
305
304
307
308
310
311
313
314
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232

127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
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151
152
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154
155
156
157
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160
161
162
163
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166
167


1408
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1411
1412
1413
1414
1415
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1418
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1420
1421
1422
1423
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1434
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1437

1314
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1316
1317
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1322
1323
1324
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1371
1372
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1383
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1386
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1398

1400
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1401
1303
1304


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Posted by: dauude at March 28, 2007 08:32 AM
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